(Introduction)DIALOGUE 1(Dial.2)(Dial.3)(Dial.4)(Dial.5)(Dial.6)(Dial.7)(Dial.8)(Dial.9)(Dial.10)

(Dial.11)(Dial.12)(Dial.13)(Dial.14)(Dial.15)(Dial.16)(Dial.17)(Dial.18)(Dial.19)(Dial.20)

ABOUT CREATION

 Clean_C wanted to start a conversation with Dirty_C. He did not know how to start. Then he started to talk about filled his heart. It took the first thing that came up into his heart.

CLEAN_C: The image of God within us is perfect. God also saw that what He did was good when He made us. That’s why I believe we are normal when we are perfect, since we have been made to be that way.

DIRTY_C: But, why are we born sinners nowadays? There is someone in my church who lives a perfect life. I hate him. I can’t think of him as a normal person at all. He must have some hidden sins somewhere. I believe he is a hypocrite.

CLEAN_C: Maybe he has no hidden sins at all. If sins are exposed and gone, it causes our face to glow the glory of God and sinners hate it when they prefer no change. And hidden sins are seen in the bitter expression of our face too.

DIRTY_C: I think he has hidden sins somewhere. Everyone in this world has some kind of sin. How can he be without sin? I don’t like the expression of his face. He is too holy for me! He is always smiling for some reason I can’t figure out and it makes me annoyed and feel accused as a bad person. I can’t stand him.

CLEAN_C: If it were not normal to go without sin, Jesus would never have commanded, “Go, and sin no more!” It would be a strange command to give to people who cannot be holy or perfect. But, tell me, aren’t you contradicting yourself somewhat? I mean, on the one hand you say he lives a perfect life; on the other hand, you state he has some hidden sin. Isn’t it a contradiction? Perhaps the heart you have and not the man causes you to say such things about him. Perhaps you are the cause of that grudge.

DIRTY_C: Oh, I don’t like him at all. He makes me feel bad. He annoys me. Having him around makes me feel like a sinner. And I don’t see this as a grudge either, but rather as a kind of annoyance against a hypocrite. Oh, I hate the feeling he brings up in me!

CLEAN_C: And what could the problem then? I mean, you’re saying no one can be without sin and, still, you feel bad because you feel like a sinner. You should be happy that you feel as sinful as you really are and that he feels as holy as he really is! It is a basic principle of honesty to be yourself and to be as you are. Shouldn’t you be honest with yourself as well?

DIRTY_C: No, I don’t know! I feel dirty when he is around! And, besides, he always says he is sinful. How can it be? That sounds plain hypocrisy to me! What is he trying to show? Couldn’t that be what people call a false humility? Why would he demand people around to be holy if he claims to be a sinner? The expression he carries around tells people to be holy. I just can’t stand it. I can’t explain what is really at stake here either. You must experience having him around to understand me.

CLEAN_C: A friend of mine said once that any holy man feels like a sinner; and that any unholy man tries to feel holy all the time and to show off with it! Maybe that’s what is happening with you and with him.

DIRTY_C: What do you mean? Are you saying I am a liar or a bad person?

CLEAN_C: No, not at all. You have said that, not me. It seems to me your reasoning contradicts itself in some ways. You say one thing to prove another. But, tell me, why shouldn’t you like him? Have you tried to love him as he is? Perhaps, by listening and by taking heed to what he shows you indirectly, you would be saved.

DIRTY_C: I am already saved! What do you mean? And I did try to love him once. Not that I hate him either. Let me put it this way: I feel irritability inside my heart when he is around and I cannot control it. It is beyond my control. It seems as if he is able to smile with his eyes when his face is serious! That doesn’t seem normal to me. He seems to me more like a hypocrite when he does that. And the worst part is that he seems to be so unaware that he is smiling! Such natural behaviour must be a very high degree of hypocrisy, so high people who have it can’t be aware of it anymore!

CLEAN_C: Would you prefer that he would smile with his face and his eyes would look hard as a rock, bitter or even unhappy? I mean, if a person smiles with his face and his eyes are not able to smile along, as you often do, isn't that person pretending?

DIRTY_C: I firmly believe that whoever smiles should always be able to show his smile, he should show his teeth too.

CLEAN_C: I believe whoever smiles with his eyes shows his heart around, even when his teeth are hidden and discrete. Jesus said that the light of the body is the eye, not the teeth.

DIRTY_C: It is no wonder that you uphold him that way – I have seen that same look in your eyes before. Why don’t I have it? I sing in church, I have accepted Jesus, I pray as you do, read my Bible, perhaps even more than you do!

CLEAN_C: Well, hardness and glory of the heart is often displayed in the eyes. And, truth be said, the smile many times exists only to hide sin and hardness away from the eyes of people because we might wish to believe only what others see in us. And that’s why we show people what we aren’t or even what we suppose we are or could be, I mean, so that they can say about us what we wish to believe we are. The lightness and the happiness in the eyes often reveal that one is clean before God and people.

DIRTY_C: What kind of lightness are you talking about? We need to feel as sinners or we will never enter heaven.

CLEAN_C: It is not true. You mean we need to carry conviction around every day to be pleasing to God? The Bible says that God will never reject truthfulness coming from the heart, whether it is a sad look or happiness it reveals. A holy heart – or at least a heart which is starting to become holy – is a broken heart which reveals itself as it is. Sinful people who pretend to be holy never have broken hearts. And the eyes often reveal what goes on inside the heart. If I have a sin, I would want to be myself before God and reveal my sin till it is forgiven or gone forever. Jesus is able to take my sin away from me. Why would I want to carry it around forever by hiding it?

DIRTY_C: But, when a sinner starts to live out what he is inside, God will make plans to destroy him! If all sinners start to be what they are or as they are, the whole world shall be like Sodom and Gomorra in a blink of an eye! We cannot dare to be what we are! Sin will take over in no time and this world will be completely corrupted!

CLEAN_C: This world is corrupted already. And you shall become holy if you come to Christ that way and come to people as you are and having Christ with you. What I mean is that we should be honest even towards ourselves. The basic principle of humility is to be outside exactly as you are inside. Besides, what you are saying could be true if God did not create us according to His image and had God committed some mistakes in the kind of creation we are.

DIRTY_C: I agree God created us without making mistakes. However, Adam made a mess out of us. Now we are all like him. And it works for us in such a way that it is as if we have Adam inside us.

CLEAN_C: And why would you have Adam in you? Did you accept Adam as you Saviour perhaps? Or did Adam receive any power to change people? Can you believe Adam can do more in you than God is able to do right now or that he overpowers his Creator? Or isn’t it convenient to you and to all sinners in general to hold on to a reason to sin and which makes them believe their sinning is Adam’s fault? Most people use it as an excuse to carry on sinning. And I am not saying Adam did not start it all. All I am saying is that you are hiding behind Adam to carry on as you would love to do.

DIRTY_C: Oh, I don’t know anymore! It is obvious you know more than me about the Bible. How is it possible that you know more about the Bible than me if it seems I read it more? I don’t know how to explain this. But, my pastor says in every sermon he preaches that we have been born with what he calls an “Old Man” inside of us and it seems he believes we cannot get rid of it until we die. Now you are telling me it is convenient for me and for him to think that way? You cannot say such things of a man of God!

CLEAN_C: And why would Christ care to come down and die for us were there no solution for the problem of sin, seeing that is what He mainly came for? And why would we need to be born again if we will keep the “Old man” still with us all the time? And did Christ not provide a way for the so-called “Old Man” to die at the cross with Him? I mean, really die? What does it mean to be a new creature, then, if old Adam carries on living? I don’t think your pastor is telling you the whole truth and neither to people listening to him; at least, I am sure he is not explaining it as accurately as he should.

DIRTY_C: You are not allowed to talk against pastors, because they are the servants of God.

CLEAN_C: And what could I say in favour of him if he says there is no way out for man and that no one can live up to God’s standards? I don’t think he would say that were he indeed a man of God. Is it, perhaps, Good News he is spreading around?

DIRTY_C: What do you mean?

CLEAN_C: Do you know why it is called the “Good News”? That’s good news only because it is promised and announced that Adam dies if Christ takes full control of our being through His resurrection in us. Choose between Christ and Adam as quickly as you can. Has Christ really been resurrected in you? Had He been lifted up in you, I am sure you would never say such things. Only ignorance can speak in such a convincing way about important things such as these! May God have mercy on you!

DIRTY_C: But, I have already accepted Christ and there is no way I can stop sinning. I have tried so hard to stop, but found that I sin more every time I think of stopping it! This is why I firmly believe my pastor is preaching the truth. The harder I try, the more I think sin and the more I sin.

CLEAN_C: Couldn’t it have another explanation? It could mean that Christ either did not come into you as you suppose He did; or that He got out sometime after He got into you – if He did come in at all. When He comes in, He makes sure He can come to stay. He must be able to dwell freely in our hearts afterwards or His coming would avail us nothing. That is the only reason why He comes in for. And unless He cleanses the house, temptations will grow.

DIRTY_C: What do you mean? I have accepted Jesus! Do you mean I didn’t? And concerning He getting out of me again after He came in, my pastor says that it is impossible. No one loses Christ after having accepted Him! My pastor even quoted from some places in the Bible to prove that salvation cannot be lost.

CLEAN_C: Did Christ make Himself present in you? Were you aware of Him stepping into your heart? Or did your imagination trick you into believing He did?

DIRTY_C: Well, people say Christ comes in when we accept Him. We ask Him to come in and He comes into our hearts. I even went to the front, in my church, to accept Him. My pastor said He came in.

CLEAN_C: Did your pastor see Him coming in? Did he make sure Jesus came in? Did you? This is not something we can play around with. This is a very serious issue! And it is very important that Christ accepts us as well. It could be He did or it could happen that He rejected the offer to come in. I don’t know. But, I am sure we cannot decide on Christ’s behalf to accept us at all. Unless sin goes out, He won’t come in. Of that I am pretty sure. We cannot mix perfume with a rotten smell! Either the perfume is spoilt or the stench is minimized and disguised. Perfume is for clean people just as Jesus is for a clean heart. “Blessed are the pure in heart! For they shall see God”, Mat.5:8. “And the Redeemer shall come to those who turn from transgression, says the Lord”, Is.59:20.

DIRTY_C: What does perfume have to do with accepting Jesus? Why do you always mix up my mind and say things in a way hard for me to understand? The way you talk makes it difficult for me to accept what you say. I have had a hard time understanding people like you. Your eyes shine as if what you are saying makes sense, but it simply doesn’t.

CLEAN_C: The lack of understanding, especially concerning such simple truths as these, only show Christ might not be in your heart as you suppose He is. Maybe He is still knocking. If He did come in as you say He did, you would surely understand truth. If you plead Christ to come in so you can be happy sinning, I am sure He won’t come in at all. If Christ comes into you or makes Himself present while you either hold or simply uphold sin, you shall be the most unhappy and terrified person on earth. Christ shall be a stumbling block to you then, surely. Besides, He does not come in to make happy, but to remove sin which makes people unhappy and bitter.

DIRTY_C: How so? You are just destroying my faith away! I cannot carry on believing after having any kind of conversation with you. I need to go now! I am sorry.

CLEAN_C: Maybe if you stay right here the only kind of faith you lose is a false one. Faith is to believe what is true and is not mere believing. Unless it is true that Jesus indeed came into you to dwell there forever, you cannot believe it is true. That can’t be taken as faith at all. If you believe Christ came into you and it is indeed so, that can be translated as faith. We must be able to believe whatever is true. And there is another thing we should consider: if Christ comes in to dwell in us forever, surely even the consciousness of sin shall depart from us. He indeed cleanses our consciences fully.

DIRTY_C: It seems so easy for you. You are either lying to me or I am missing the whole point somewhere. This is why I don’t like talking to you! It leaves me unsure and without rest in my mind for a long time. I can’t stand it to feel that way.

CLEAN_C: Jesus cleanses our consciences for real. Our conscience is like a book where every deed and every thought is written down to be remembered later on and, also, to correct our behaviour before we die. It serves a twofold purpose. And what is written there manipulates our behaviours along our whole life. If conscience is clean and defends us, we shall be confident and encouraged to carry on the way we should always have been. If conscience is not clean, we shall be bad, restless and an easy pray to temptation, and resentful towards everything; we shall also conceive many false ideas about God and about truth - which is most convenient to a false behaviour. A false behaviour is to live according to sin and not according to what we have been created for. Our conscience has a direct influence over us. It has a direct influence upon our faith as well. It can cause us to shipwreck or to rise to heaven. We can choose between being influenced positively through a clean conscience or by struggling along trying not to think evil or not to be evil. A bad conscience also teaches itself how to hide, excuse or laugh sin away. It is able to deceive us and tell us people around are not able to see or smell our sins if we ignore them. It makes us feel we owe something to people around as well and drives us to please them. But, all it does is nothing but hiding and excusing itself the best way it can.

DIRTY_C: There is another thing I cannot understand from you guys. How is it possible for you to say you have no sin? We are all sinners!

CLEAN_C: If we have been born to sin, if holiness and clean walking were impossible to us at all, then hell is not a righteous decree coming from a righteous God. And, consequently, we may assume God is not as good as He tells us He is. He cannot be righteous by sending any of us to hell then, because people cannot stop sinning. Can He be righteous?

DIRTY_C: I see you also say bad things about God, just as you have said about my pastor whom I consider a man of God!  

CLEAN_C: If God created us to be sinful how could He ever damn us for sin and how could He demand holiness from us at all? Can you tell your dog to fly? Or could you demand from a duck never to go into the water? Wouldn’t it be unfair? If you cannot be holy God cannot ask you to be holy, just as you couldn’t ask your dog to fly.

DIRTY_C: And why did my pastor say we are all sinners, every one of us, and that unless we say we are sinners we shall never enter heaven at all?

CLEAN_C: Well, we are indeed sinners, some in one way and others in another. Perhaps that person you do not like is putting it in the light you should see it yourself. Because we are sinners, we need to be transformed. Tell me, why would we need to be transformed were it impossible to us to be holy and were we to remain as we have always been?

DIRTY_C: Well, I believe we shall be pure once we get into heaven for always. But, I just cannot believe it is possible to be that pure here on earth at all. It doesn’t make sense to me. Experience tells me it is impossible.

CLEAN_C: I believe you believe amiss, mainly for two reasons: one is that Jesus said He would be able to save us from our sins and even from ourselves; (and before He tells us to be perfect, He mentions the fact that all power belongs to Him); the other is that the kind of heart we have now shall go with us wherever we go, even if it is to heaven. You cannot believe you shall change by dying physically. You may adapt yourself to some extend were it possible, but it is impossible to change the heart you have there. Only here is it possible to change what you are through the power of God.

DIRTY_C: And how does a person change that way? It seems to me you are putting the standard too high and beyond our reach - quite above what we can reach out to.

CLEAN_C: You have been going to church and it never got through you that we indeed change through the Lord?

DIRTY_C: How, if we are still on earth? While on earth we cannot stop sinning. Consequently, I believe our conscience can’t be as clean as you say it must be.

CLEAN_C: Christ promised to have it whiter than snow and I don’t believe He meant it would happen only after we die. I am sure it is right here on earth we must experience a life which exists in heaven and in holy beings. If we live in Him, we live in a kind of heaven already. In Him we shall be as holy as He is. But, it needs to be real and we need to be indeed in Him. Jesus is our “place” to live in. Our heaven is Jesus and heaven would never be as it is unless people and angels lived in Jesus as they do there.

DIRTY_C: We mustn't believe we can be holy now; only that we shall be transformed later, after we die. That is faith.

CLEAN_C: It can’t be faith at all! You mean faith is to believe a lie? We trust Jesus to be able to change us right now and right away. That’s what He promised to do. And the change is real. We cannot find any promise in the Bible stating we shall be holy only in heaven or changed only there. The physical shall be changed then, but not the spiritual. The promise is for now and so is the commandment. Why would Christ insist so much that His commandments be fulfilled if they are meant to be fulfilled only after we die? I thank God His transformation is real and that it is meant for us now. “For the grace of God that brings salvation… teaching us that we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world”, Tit.2:11,12. What else can you say? 

DIRTY_C: Oh, I don’t know. I believe that kind of life is impossible while on earth. Once we die and go to heaven we shall be holy. And that’s it! Experience tells me that to be the truth.

CLEAN_C: How can you say such things? Physical death is not real death at all. You cannot believe you shall be a different person after dying. The hearts we have now in us, shall carry on with us. I don’t believe God shall change anyone after death, but rather before death.

DIRTY_C: Have you stopped sinning at all?

CLEAN_C: Can you see any sin in me or at least what God considers as sin? If you are able to see as much as a single sin in me, please be so kind as to tell me about it. I will be extremely thankful to you and I am sure I will be able to prove to you just how easy it is to do away with it.

DIRTY_C: Oh, please! No one shall ever be holy, at least not here on earth! I am tired of trying to be holy and have achieved no success, but only failure.

CLEAN_C: If we cannot be holy now, then God has been telling us the wrong things all along! Don’t you think so? He said “Be perfect as your Father is perfect”; “Be holy”. Why would He say that if we can’t be holy and neither be perfect in any aspect of our lives? You have just said I say the wrong things about God and that sounded that you were meaning I was blaspheming against God in some way. But, I believe you are saying the wrong things about God without knowing it! You are saying God is not consistent in what He says. You say He demands from us what we can never be.

DIRTY_C: And, tell me: why do we carry on sinning if our nature is really as holy as you say? If you say God changes us in such a way that we sin no more, why do we carry on sinning all the time? If I have been transformed, why do I still sin?

CLEAN_C: I did not say we have been born holy, but rather that creation made us holy beings by giving us everything we need to be holy. But, as fish dry up outside water, so shall a holy creation dry up outside God. We can be as bad as demons once we are away from God. No water mill works without water and when it works, it shall surely grind only whatever is put into it. If you put stones into a mill it shall grind stones and give you sand. If corn is put in there, you shall have something to make bread with.

DIRTY_C: And why can’t we stop sinning?

CLEAN_C: Who said we cannot stop sinning? The only person saying that is you, isn’t it? Jesus, besides having given us everything we need to be like Him and to be according to His image, also gives us the power to fight through; the Bible and the commandments makes known what we should fight for; and He gives Himself to us so that we can see into what kind of image we are being shaped all over again. When God says we "must come back", He means we must be holy again, returning to our original state. He has given us everything we need to be as He asks us to be.

DIRTY_C: And how shall we handle the world we live in right now? How can we get rid of it and avoid the temptations it is able to exercise over us?

CLEAN_C: This world is the perfect place for us to stop sinning.

DIRTY_C: What do you mean? I am stunned! How can you say that?

CLEAN_C: The people who do not stop sinning here on earth are such who do not wish to stop sinning! In fact, earth is the right to stop sinning because it is here we can learn not to wish, will or desire after sin. It is possible to change the heart on earth -not where there is no sin. A drunkard shall cease to wish to drink alcohol better here, by having it around than far from it. Here, he must change his heart to stop drinking and not only his habits. When people say they cannot stop sinning here, they actually mean they do not wish to stop sinning and to change their hearts. You cannot change your heart in heaven. And, if God manages to get into people, it only means people have free access to what He is as well. By entering into God freely while we still live in this world, we shall indeed show we have changed or, at least, that we can be transformed.

DIRTY_C: I will need to go now. You are confusing me. Perhaps I will come back later to talk again, even if it confuses me. I am still not convinced that what you are saying is true. Honestly, I believe you are too well prepared and you spread false doctrines around.

CLEAN_C: Ok. Have a blessed day.

(Introduction)DIALOGUE 1(Dial.2)(Dial.3)(Dial.4)(Dial.5)(Dial.6)(Dial.7)(Dial.8)(Dial.9)(Dial.10)

(Dial.11)(Dial.12)(Dial.13)(Dial.14)(Dial.15)(Dial.16)(Dial.17)(Dial.18)(Dial.19)(Dial.20)