(Introduction)(Dial.1)(Dial.2)(Dial.3)(Dial.4)(Dial.5)(Dial.6)(Dial.7)DIALOGUE 8(Dial.9)(Dial.10)

(Dial.11)(Dial.12)(Dial.13)(Dial.14)(Dial.15)(Dial.16)(Dial.17)(Dial.18)(Dial.19)(Dial.20)

ABOUT ELECTION

CLEAN_C: I had a little problem. I was close to stumbling. But, God helped me and I am still standing. The word of God is truthful indeed. It says, “So let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall”. It is so true!

DIRTY_C: But, if you fall nothing serious shall ever happen to you. You are a chosen one!

CLEAN_C: What a foolish thing you are saying! How can you say such a thing? What a strange thought to truth!

DIRTY_C: Isn’t it so? God chooses some people to go to heaven and some others to go to hell. I don’t believe He shall ever throw you out of heaven.

CLEAN_C: That’s a foolish way of interpreting some piece of truth. How can you say such a thing? You are misinterpreting truth, surely. Chosen ones and genuine believers who fall back into worldliness are chastised more severely than people who never knew God. How can you say such a thing? “For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God. And if it first begins from us, what will be the end of those disobeying the gospel of God?” 1Pet. 4:17. Jesus said it is much better to be cold than lukewarm. “For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them”, 2Pet. 2:21. And if the Bible says it is better, than it must surely be better.

DIRTY_C: But, what does it mean to be chosen then?

CLEAN_C: It is true God chooses times, people and even events to start some important things for His Kingdom’s sake. God may choose and select some people among the lost bundle to go and preach to those who may have not been as chosen the way they have been. If everyone is lost, God must start somewhere and, to start somewhere, He must choose where and through whom He will do so. He did that with Paul, Peter and the other disciples. However, every man or woman in this vast world has the duty and the responsibility to be converted and saved. We cannot wait until we hear to decide to be saved. Once we hear, the responsibility is greater. However, that doesn't mean we do not have other means at our reach to search after God. The fact is that if people wait to hear, or if they have been chosen before they decide to be rescued out of sin, they shall be slack after knowing about their election, just as they have been towards salvation before hearing about it.

DIRTY_C: How so?

CLEAN_C: If the genuine gospel comes to a certain place, we may say that place has been selected to hear the Good News. No doubt about that! And those who hear the pure gospel are privileged people indeed. The genuine gospel is rare nowadays. It is as if they have indeed been chosen. However, we cannot deny that many of those who have been chosen and selected to hear such Good News will eventually reject it for always. They do not think of it as Good News, as something which came their way, something better than any kind of jackpot. They refuse to be converted and throw away a great and free salvation. How sad! However, God cannot accept someone in heaven still having a thief’s heart, or a liar’s, can He? Many shall go to hell even after having heard the Gospel – in fact, even after having obeyed some of it!

DIRTY_C: Please, don’t talk about hell! It scares me! I don’t like thinking I might start burning for always some day. I hate to think God has not chosen me as He chose you! I don’t think it is fair. It feels to me a chosen one may sin and he’ll still go to heaven. The same cannot be said about me! It is only me who can’t sin and go to heaven! I need to work hard if I ever wish to get as far as the door of heaven! There are some things about God I cannot regard as fair. Things do not work out the same way for everyone.

CLEAN_C: You cannot say or believe such nonsense! Ruth belonged to a nation which was destined to be destroyed forever. Yet, she got saved and even became part of the genealogy of the Messiah! She became the grandmother of David, the great king! In the meanwhile, many chosen Israelites got lost during her time. “Truly I say to you that the tax-collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you”, Mat.21:31. Sometimes, the word "before", as used in this context, means instead. We could say she was not a chosen one and yet became important to God. The Bible has sixty six books and one of them is wholly dedicated to her. She could never believe she had been chosen because she did not belong to Israel, and much less after her husband died. She was a Moabitess. And that tribe has been condemned by the living God to be completely destroyed. Her sister-in-law had the same chance as she to get saved, but she chose otherwise and would rather return to her gods and people. We have many reasons to believe Ruth was not meant to be in heaven. But, she is there, just like Rahab, the prostitute. She repented and lived a faithful life by having denied her old one.

DIRTY_C: You mean I can get into heaven even if I believe I have never been chosen to be there?

CLEAN_C: You shall get into heaven if you become thoroughly saved from every sin just as I need to be saved from them all. Salvation means the same thing for everyone and it saves all people from the same old sins. It works the same way for everyone on earth.

DIRTY_C: I still believe I must be chosen to get into heaven. Besides, I don’t know if heaven is what I really want at this point. Maybe I just want to live well on earth for a long time. I don’t know what I want, really.

CLEAN_C: You can use as many excuses as you wish. I believe it is your way of postponing the inevitable. I believe you want to find a reason to enjoy sin for longer than what you expect it can be done. It is obvious it is convenient to you to think you have not been chosen. It kind of allows you to carry on as you have always been. Would you stop finding excuses for not cleansing your whole life right away? Why do you keep postponing it? A time shall come when you won’t be accepted if you carry on like this - not even through tears and crying will you be accepted! “For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he did not find any place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears”, Heb.12:17.

DIRTY_C: However, my pastor says that unless I am a chosen one, I won’t stand a chance to get into heaven.

CLEAN_C: You know what I would do in case I had the same belief you have, I mean, believing I had not been chosen? I would knock at that door until it opened up for me! I would do nothing else except knock! I would not sleep a single minute until I had received a positive answer from the Lord.

DIRTY_C: And what if the door would not open for you? What then?

CLEAN_C: Jesus said it shall open alright if we keep knocking. How, do you think, would God ever live an eternity knowing He did not fulfil such a solemn promise He made to every human being there is in this vast world? The door shall surely open up! The question is not whether it shall open, but rather if I will keep knocking till it opens!

DIRTY_C: Now I am quite confused about this whole issue. What does it mean that we are chosen then? What is the worth of having been chosen after all?

CLEAN_C: I cannot explain the whole mystery of it, tough. But, I can say a few things I believe concerning the matter. It is a mystery. The only thing I know is that if I find myself hearing the gospel, I must have an immediate response towards it. Hearing the gospel is the same thing as having been called to share in God’s glory. It is as if Jesus was standing at our door saying, “Here is the Kingdom of God! Get in! Do not have second thoughts about entering! Come right away!” Jesus did that to many at the time of the Apostles. And many said the apostles were drunk by living a reality no one could see or explain. Many saw it afar and blasphemed. They did not come near to see for themselves and to experience the reality of God. Some who blasphemed came afterwards and have been fully converted. It is easy to follow our heart’s blasphemy. On the other hand, it is never too late to follow the Lord’s call instead.

DIRTY_C: I understand that. But, I can’t help thinking that it seems I am giving some advice to God about this whole issue. If it depended on me, I would choose at the end of the race and not beforehand. Why choose before? I mean, at the end, the bad people could be separated from the good ones. It is true I choose beforehand where I shall buy potatoes, but it is also true I choose afterwards which I shall buy or not. It feels righteous to me to do it that way.

CLEAN_C: I can agree with you. I don’t see anything in your words that God doesn’t do Himself. God said, He and His angels shall come towards the end to choose between the good and the bad ones to separate them. He shall separate the darnel from the wheat. “Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered some of every kind; which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth”, Mat.13:47-50. It is true that God shall choose at the end. Yet, it can’t be less true that God chooses where to start saving at the beginning as well. For example, if you have a dry forest and you wish to burn it with fire, you need to start the fire somewhere. You shall choose a place to start that fire even if you do not choose (at that point) where it shall end. But, God also chooses where the time of grace shall end. If I do that, and if all people are indeed lost, why shouldn’t God find a place to start the fire of the Holy Spirit? “I have come to send fire on the earth. And what will I do if it is already kindled?” Luke 12:49. God chose Israel to start that fire, but that cannot possibly mean only Israel can or will be saved!

DIRTY_C: I think you are right about this as well. As usual, you are right. And why do people everywhere make such a fuss about this whole issue?

CLEAN_C: I believe people love to feel superior to others and they shall use anything to think highly of themselves. The others will use the idea of not being chosen to excuse themselves off the Kingdom and to further entertain themselves in all sorts of sins. The Pharisees thought highly of themselves. It is true God chose Israel to save the rest of the condemned world. However, we know how God rejected Israel later on, even if they had been chosen since the foundation of the world. “He said, ‘I have sworn in My wrath that they would not enter into My rest;’ although their works were finished from the foundation of the world”, Heb.4:3. Most of them chose rather to feel superior to others than to be as merciful as God, especially if they had no merit in their own salvation. The doctrine of election cannot be used to build sand castles and illusions concerning ourselves or our salvation. It can neither serve as an excuse for those who wish to carry on sinning.

DIRTY_C: What do you mean by that?

CLEAN_C: Many use that doctrine to carry on sinning. Some do so because they believe they have been chosen in such a way that not even sin will ever cause their damnation. Others, again, believe they have not been chosen and have, therefore, a right to carry on living as they think best. Both have lost the fear of God and have abandoned the way of the Lord.

DIRTY_C: Please, can you explain this to me more clearly? I find this very interesting, especially the way you put it. I have never seen it that way.

CLEAN_C: Every person who feels safe behind any doctrine of election usually builds a fantasy world of their own which hinders holiness in their lives greatly. They usually try hard to teach things they don’t understand. Their lives always contradict whatever they preach and they find themselves in need to fabricate doctrines which excuse or explain their usual behaviour. They say it is impossible to be perfect even if the Bible talks so much about us being made perfect. “Watch the perfect and behold the upright one; for the end of that man is peace”, Ps.37:37. The Bible describes such people as “teachers who do not understand what they talk about”. On the other hand, sinners find both the excuse and the reason they have been looking for to refuse to repent. Both “take heed to fables” so they may follow a way of their own, which suits them better.

DIRTY_C: I understand.

CLEAN_C: Sinners quit the responsibility they have towards God and towards a perfect life. They have the duty to save their own lives from themselves and from sin, and yet they laugh it away. At the end, they will blame God for their damnation, each having own reasons to do so. In the meanwhile, they carry on sinning for a while more because they chose “to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time”. These trample on their moral responsibility and duty to live exclusively for God and shake it off their shoulders; they even use the Bible to do so because they understand it very poorly. This doctrine is also used to avoid sowing in one’s own field. People use it to preach to others since they believe they are already chosen and are in no need to be taught. They do not take Jesus’ words into consideration. The Lord talked so many times about sowing in one’s own field. That is the whole aim of the gospel, to save me from myself. If we believe we hear and understand only to save others, surely we won’t be saved from ourselves and from all kinds of sin. Certain words in the Bible won’t make sense either, such as, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, nor stay in all the plain. Escape to the mountain lest you be consumed!” Gen.19:17. We will tell others to escape for their lives while God is telling us to do so!

DIRTY_C: That makes sense. Now it starts to make sense to me. I believe you are right again!

CLEAN_C: In other words, all people who take pains to preach to others only need to justify their own lack of genuine, visible life. Many shall be condemned because they preach to others only and many will be saved because they preach to themselves. Usually, they put all emphasis on the illusionary assumption that salvation is salvation from hell and not from sin and self. And Jesus came to save us from our sins, Mat.1:21.

DIRTY_C: I heard a sermon about it once. And it made sense to me. But why do people assume that the reward for sinning is death only for those who have not been chosen? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

CLEAN_C: Think of Adam. I don’t believe there has ever been a person as chosen as he was. God made him with such care and devotion one can hardly conceive. It seems it took God the whole sixth day to make Adam and Eve, as much time as He took to create all other things, great and small. Besides, Adam was made through the hands of God, while other things were brought to life through words. God did not say “Let there be Adam”. He made Adam with His own hands. God did not breathe into the animals or trees. Yet, He breathed His own life into Adam. But, even so, Adam sinned. His caring election meant nothing to him, I think.

DIRTY_C: It is true. I am amazed at the amount of things you know about this, you know? It seems you have gone through all these matters which still bother other people everywhere. You have already found the answer to those questions most people do not dare to ask! Many feel afraid to question their own churches’ doctrines and ways - how much more their own lives and perspectives!

CLEAN_C: You should save your words to rather cleanse your whole life. You should do that instead of trying to flatter me with useless compliments. It seems you are afraid God’s pure waters will stain you. Why are you avoiding what is really at stake here? You must decide to cleanse your life right away, or you might become hardened through the amount of truth passing your mind. When truth does not get a positive response from us, we shall be hardened each day that passes us by. Were that hardening against sin, it would be a blessing. But, it is a hardening against the living God! You should be careful with yourself. You should cease to hold on to excuses day in and day out. You remind me of my grandfather. I recall he was very sick once and my father had to take him to the doctor. But, my grandfather hated to wash and did not wish to take a bath. So, my father said that unless he took a bath, he wouldn’t take him to the doctor. My father called for some help and dragged him to the bath. He almost died! He fought back and it was very difficult for my father to get him thoroughly washed and presentable. This is a true story. Now, it seems you need to be forced to wash yourself in the blood of Jesus that way.

DIRTY_C: Everything was going so smooth these last moments of our talk. It was a long time since you last offended me that way. Now you’re starting it again, especially now that I had been understanding these things much better.

CLEAN_C: I am sure you won’t feel offended any longer if you decide to cleanse your whole life thoroughly. You shouldn’t carry on postponing these matters. You will understand all of this after repenting. You do not need to understand them before confessing all your sins, one by one. You may understand them anytime! Please, make up your mind quickly! You might be running out of time.

DIRTY_C: I will try not to feel hurt anymore. It doesn’t matter. I feel left out by God anyway. Let’s carry on please. Our conversation was a blessing to me today. So, are we chosen and selected before we are saved as well as after?

CLEAN_C: I believe we are, yes. But, we should mark what we are chosen for. Many say they have been chosen to go to heaven. But, reading carefully what Paul wrote about it all, especially in the book of Ephesians, we see that he says we have been chosen to live and to experience a holy life here on earth – a life of glory right here on earth. "He chose us, in Him, before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in his presence", Eph.1:4. It is different from the perspective of going to heaven, only. We are chosen to be holy. “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world”, Tit.2:11-12.

DIRTY_C: I understand. In your view, God does not choose some people above others then?

CLEAN_C: No, He doesn’t. He chooses, but not above others. He chooses some who will learn to save others. God saves many through these chosen ones. Paul said, it all happened so as “to preach the gospel beyond you”, 2Cor.10:16. That is what I believe about this whole issue. But, I know there is a lot more about this kind of wisdom which I don’t understand that clearly yet. It is a kind of wise scheme planned in all details to save every lost soul.

DIRTY_C: I understand.

(Introduction)(Dial.1)(Dial.2)(Dial.3)(Dial.4)(Dial.5)(Dial.6)(Dial.7)DIALOGUE 8(Dial.9)(Dial.10)

(Dial.11)(Dial.12)(Dial.13)(Dial.14)(Dial.15)(Dial.16)(Dial.17)(Dial.18)(Dial.19)(Dial.20)